DON GONYEA, HOST:
Lately, host Scott Detrow has been having conversations on the ways movies can inspire us, surprise us, even disappoint us. I'll let Scott take it from there.
SCOTT DETROW, BYLINE: Now it's time for our weekly segment where some of NPR's film experts and self-proclaimed film experts get together to discuss what's been on their minds. Today, we've got all things considered producer Marc Rivers - hey, Marc...
MARC RIVERS, BYLINE: Hey, Scott.
DETROW: ...And NPR Pop Culture Happy Hour host Aisha Harris, Hey, Aisha.
AISHA HARRIS, BYLINE: Hey, Scott.
DETROW: Marc, what are we thinking about today?
RIVERS: I want to talk about who I think are some of the bankable young actors today, let's say, under 40. I'm thinking Timothee Chalamet, Glen Powell, Zendaya, Austin Butler, Margot Robbie, Florence Pugh, Tom Holland, maybe Michael B. Jordan. Yeah, Aisha, do you agree with this list? I - did I leave anybody important out?
HARRIS: I mean, I don't know if I believe that there are any bankable actors anymore.
RIVERS: A tragedy on its own.
HARRIS: Well, I mean, I think there are bankable franchises, but I think it's hard to be able to tell if a lot of these stars are the ones who are driving people to go see those movies or if it's the sort of - the franchises they're leading, whether it's "Twisters" or, you know, "Dune. But I understand. Keep going.
RIVERS: I think...
HARRIS: Talk a little bit more.
RIVERS: I think you're right. I think IP takes primacy. But if we're talking who is being put in these IP projects and who I think the studios think are going to put butts in seats - I think what I'm getting at is, this list of actors I think that are bankable - it's a very white list. And in Black History Month, you know, I - and thinking about how I want to see my people prosper, I'm thinking about just what roles are being afforded to Black actors right now in this day and age, the kind of roles that they can get.
DETROW: What's interesting about the timing of all of this, Marc, is that this year is somehow 10 years out from the #OscarsSoWhite debacle, which, for those who do not...
RIVERS: Feels like just yesterday.
DETROW: ...Follow this closely, was the year that literally every actor and actress nominated for an Oscar was white.
RIVERS: Yeah, so this was - yeah. This was back in 2015, and it was actually two years in a row. And this hashtag was started by this woman, April Reign - Black woman who was not a Hollywood insider. This was - she was, like, a campaign finance lawyer. But she was big on what was Black Twitter. And she posted this hashtag, and it really blew up in the second year that the Oscars shut out any nonwhite nominees.
There were boycotts. Jada Pinkett Smith boycotted. Spike Lee boycotted. And the - yeah, the Academy said they wanted to double its numbers of - as far as women. They want to double people of color. Back in 2014, there was a study the LA Times did that found that around 95- to 96% of the membership was white. Somewhere around 70% was male.
And Cheryl Boone Isaacs, who was the head of the Academy then, really spearheaded this initiative to diversify those ranks. And I think an Oscar problem is an industry problem, too, as well. Do you think there was any progress, Aisha, after that?
HARRIS: Yeah, I mean, look, the Oscars are definitely the most prominent thing that we often think about when we're thinking about progress when it comes to women and people of color. But it is very much a industrywide problem as well. I think about the fact that as recently as just, like, in 2023, when Taraji P Henson was doing the press tour for "The Color Purple," the musical version of that...
(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "PUSH DA BUTTON")
TARAJI P HENSON: (As Shug Avery, singing) Now, there's something about good loving that all you ladies should know.
HARRIS: ...She was going around talking about how, yes, she's - you know, she's a veteran actress. She is able to star in certain movies. She's been nominated for an Oscar before, but she still struggles to prosper in the same way that some of her peers have financially.
RIVERS: And I want to say, you know, after those back-to-back Oscar years - and I think there was this - actually kind of a pretty big explosion of kind of Black art that came out in, like, say, 2016. You had "Moonlight," which won best picture - you know, infamously won best picture of the year at the next year's ceremony. And you had other kind of benchmarks. You had - you know, you had "Black Panther" in 2018, which was, like - which show that IP franchises can be led by an all-Black cast and make money, not just here and overseas.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "BLACK PANTHER")
LUPITA NYONG'O: (As Nakia) You get to decide what kind of king you are going to be.
RIVERS: You had a movie like "Girls Trip," which showed that Black women could be raunchy and fun and quirky and also, you know, bring in dollars.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "GIRLS TRIP")
TIFFANY HADDISH: (As Dina) OK, now, here's what I want. Let me get three shots of whiskey with a Coke to chase. Coke Zero, though - I'm watching my fig.
REGINA HALL: (As Ryan Pierce) Dina, you know this is only an hour flight.
HADDISH: (As Dina) Oh, well, then, in that case, let me go ahead and get those three shots now, and then bring me a shot a Bailey's once we get into cruising altitude.
RIVERS: And a lot of these movies - you know, it provided these rich roles for folk like Dan Kaluuya, Tiffany Haddish, Letitia Wright, Winston Duke. And you would think, looking at some of those guys, that they would have kind of these rich careers going forward. But I'm just - I'm looking at the landscape, and a lot of those guys have not had the kind of similar successes that their contemporary white peers have had, to me.
DETROW: So of the Black actors today, who do you think has had a career most comparable to their white peers?
RIVERS: I mean, obviously, someone like I mentioned up front, like Zendaya. I think she's got into the big tentpole projects like "Dune." She's been in kind of smaller, more adult dramas, like, "Challengers" from last year.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "CHALLENGERS")
ZENDAYA: (As Tashi Duncan) How often does this happen, ging after the same girl?
MIKE FAIST: (As Art Donaldson) Not as often as you think.
JOSH O'CONNOR: (As Patrick Zweig) We usually have different types.
ZENDAYA: (As Tashi Duncan) So you're saying I should be flattered.
FAIST: (As Art Donaldson) Aren't you everybody's type?
RIVERS: I also think about someone like Zoe Saldana. She's been in the industry for a long time. She's kind of been, like, you know, the girl in both movies with an all-Black cast, movies with an All-white cast. And she's been in these gigantic successes like "Avatar" and, like, you know, "Guardians Of The Galaxy"...
DETROW: Yeah.
RIVERS: ...And the "Avengers" movies. I think the problem with Zoe is that she's had to be kind of blue and green for the last, like...
DETROW: (Laughter).
RIVERS: ...You know, blue or green for the last, like, 10 years or so.
DETROW: That's a good point.
RIVERS: And I'm grateful for something like "Emilia Perez," that has allowed her to actually act in her own skin color. But I think as far as...
DETROW: As a nonalien.
RIVERS: Yeah, as a nonalien, as an actual human.
HARRIS: I mean, here's the thing. I've already said this before, but I think, like, the concept of a actor in Hollywood these days is not the same as it was 20, 30 years ago. So Tom Cruise, Will Smith, those types of things - like, those are not the benchmarks.
RIVERS: Things of the past. Yeah.
HARRIS: Yeah, they're not the benchmarks anymore. I can imagine someone like Keke Palmer having a career that is similar to someone like Jennifer Lawrence. She has range. She's also just very affable and very personable.
RIVERS: Keke Palmer is someone I want to see have, like, a screwball comedy kind of kind of career. You know, I want to see her in stuff like "His Girl Friday." I want to see her having a great time. I think Keke Palmer, to me, is almost more - she's more of a social media star than she's a movie star. Like, I think - you know, I think we're kind of squandering her talents on social media.
HARRIS: Yeah, I mean, actually, even when I think about, she is a child actress. She is a...
RIVERS: She's been around for a while.
HARRIS: ...Disney kid.
RIVERS: Yeah.
HARRIS: So, I mean, you could even say that Keke Palmer's trajectory should be similar to someone like Ariana Grande, but we are not seeing that 'cause she - like, Ariana can sing, dance. She can do all the things. And that is something that - like, I hope that someday we are able to value her in that way.
DETROW: So is this is a broader problem, then, of what projects are being greenlit and also, Marc, as you said, where those projects are going?
RIVERS: Yeah, you know, kind of like Aisha said, like, the way movies are being made now is different. But that trickles down to where - so if the white actors are suffering because of that - if you can't sell a Margot Robbie movie, you have to sell it as a "Barbie" movie, then the Black actors, I feel, suffer even more.
And I think there's still kind of a lack of imagination from studio heads about what they want to see Black actors be in. You know, I think they make calculations. Like, if you put two Black leads in the same movie, all of a sudden, it's a Black movie. All of a sudden, it's not going to travel overseas.
And I - and yeah, I think it's a lack of imagination. You know, I think there's still - a biopic might be safe, you know, or a movie about trauma or slavery might be a little bit safer. But I think there's kind of other more fun and kind of stylistically or tonally diverse roles. I think Black actors still struggle to get those types of roles.
HARRIS: Yeah. And I think the other thing is that, like, if the studios are not going to promote the films - and, of course, this is an industrywide problem. Like, even George Clooney movies that drop on Apple+ are not, like, you know, getting a lot of play.
But I think if it's an industrywide problem, it falls on people like myself, film critics, to sort of champion the movies that are getting made because they are getting made. I think it's just they're harder to find. And so I think of a movie like "Rye Lane," which came out a couple of years ago, directed by Raine Allen-Miller, a really delightful British rom-com that kind of has elements of "Before Sunrise" and "Love Actually."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "RYE LANE")
DAVID JONSSON: (As Dom) Going to meet my ex for the first time since the breakup.
VIVIAN OPARAH: (As Yas) And you're still calling it the breakup.
JONSSON: (As Dom) I thought we were fine. We were better than fine. We moved in together. We had "Hamilton" tickets.
OPARAH: (As Yas) It's a serious commitment.
JONSSON: (As Dom) Right?
HARRIS: I wish more people had seen it. It was on Hulu at one point. I don't know if it's still there, but it's really important for people to just, like, seek them out 'cause they do exist. There is a problem. There is a problem with the industry and making those movies, but they are getting made. It's just harder to find.
DETROW: All right. We'll do this again next week. That was NPR's Marc Rivers and Aisha Harris. Thanks to both of you.
RIVERS: Thanks, Scott.
HARRIS: Thank you. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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