ARI SHAPIRO, HOST:
We are hosting the show today from the edge of the Panama Canal. President Trump says the U.S. was foolish to give it away and he wants it back. The new secretary of state, Marco Rubio, wrapped up a trip to Panama today. In a meeting with the country's president, he apparently delivered an ultimatum - get China's influence out of the canal, or the U.S. will do what it has to.
Well, our next guest is the man who used to oversee this 51-mile waterway connecting the Pacific and Atlantic oceans. Jorge Luis Quijano was the canal administrator from 2012 to 2019. Thank you so much for joining us here today.
JORGE LUIS QUIJANO: Glad to be here.
SHAPIRO: Secretary Rubio just left this morning. Are you feeling better or worse about the situation than before his visit?
QUIJANO: Well, I think we expected a little bit more detail of what was really behind President Trump's accusations and misinterpretations and...
SHAPIRO: More detail like specifically what concessions...
QUIJANO: Specifically what do you want, you know?
SHAPIRO: ...The U.S. wanted? Yeah.
QUIJANO: Because I really don't think that he intends to invade Panama once again - not him, but the U.S. So I believe that there's more to what he's saying that he really is expecting Panama to somehow come to terms with.
SHAPIRO: He did not offer the details, as you say, but this statement from the State Department was pretty pointed. If I may quote to you from it, it says, "this status quo is unacceptable, and absent immediate changes it would require the United States to take measures necessary to protect its rights." What kind of immediate changes could you imagine Panama offering that might appease President Trump?
QUIJANO: Well, I'm not going to speak for the government. I'm now retired, and I can only say that the statements that have been made are incorrect. They are...
SHAPIRO: About Chinese involvement?
QUIJANO: About Chinese involvement - yes, there are some Chinese contractors here doing some work, but like them, you know, this is an international waterway. And Panama is really international, and therefore you're going to have contractors from all over the place.
SHAPIRO: But as you know, there are these two ports...
QUIJANO: But these...
SHAPIRO: ...Operated by a company out of Hong Kong, which the State Department says opens the door to influence by the Chinese Communist Party.
QUIJANO: Well, that's, I think, an exspeculation (ph). When you make these accusations, you need to prove them. I have not seen any proof.
SHAPIRO: And yet, Panama has begun an audit of those ports. Do you think that could be used as a pretense to seize control from these Hong Kong-based companies in order to satisfy President Trump?
QUIJANO: I think if we go back, the audit was required to be done really very indeed (ph) when it was the renovation of the contract or the concession, which was back in 2022. And at that time, the controller general, frankly speaking, I felt that he didn't do quite his job of actually coming up with a good audit. But these are all commercial issues that need to be audited. And the audit is because Panama owns 10% of that concession.
SHAPIRO: But I'm just trying to figure out what the off-ramp here is. If Trump is insistent that we will take the canal, and Panama is insistent that this is nonnegotiable, Panamanian land is sovereign, then how does this get resolved? Is it the audit? Is it concessions?
QUIJANO: You...
SHAPIRO: You say you hope it's not an invasion. I think everyone hopes that. What is the ending?
QUIJANO: Well, first of all, we haven't really spoken up. I mean, negotiations haven't really started. What is it that they really want? - I mean, the U.S. wants, and what is it that Panama also wants? Because this - you know, we've been partners with the United States forever. And yes, we have our ups and downs through time. But I'm surprised that right now, with this president in particular, that he's actually improving on the migration into the United States by significant numbers, that cooperating with the U.S., and he's not really focusing on working together to do more positive things like that and, like, maybe drug interdiction and other items. But going back...
SHAPIRO: So you think maybe with drugs and with immigration, there's an opportunity to - for Panama to say, we can help you, you can help us. We can reach a solution here.
QUIJANO: Yeah. But not only that, but I want to go back to the ports because, you know, he feels like the ports control the Panama Canal, and that's not the way it is.
SHAPIRO: All right.
QUIJANO: To go, and then you're right here next to the canal. And you know that to take a vessel from the anchorage to the port, you need first authorization from Marine Traffic Control, which is controlled by the Panama Canal. You also need a Panamanian pilot to go on board of the vessel and take full control of the vessel to take it to the port. So who is in control? We control - Panama controls the access to the ports or actually coming out of the port as well.
SHAPIRO: Jorge Luis Quijano was administrator of the Panama Canal from 2012 to 2019. Thank you so much for talking with us here today in Panama City.
QUIJANO: Thank you for an invitation.
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